24 replies to this topic

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

Hey Everybody,

I know talking about lyrics and especially about John's lyrics can be tiring and stressful. It seems like the meaning, though transmitted via words, is always out of reach for words. Nevertheless, I'm completly in love with John's lyrics and consider them to be the best in the sphere of popular music - they might even be on the same level as the works of some of the most famous poets in history. As such, naturally, I also love to deepen and widen my understanding of them.

One of his main themes and methodes he uses seems to be that of contradictory statements. Until now I did not come across a contemporary poet/musician who drew so much on amiguity, paradoxes and contradictions. Such as...

"Somehow we fade from old to young" / "In that halo - Evil" / "To be here you first got to die" / "I wouldn't know my face if you all were me" / "And your hands are feet" / "Language is false but it speaks to me" / "Loose yourself in the far off worlds that are right under your feet" / "The will to death is what keeps me alive" / "And being tall meant lacking height, and being wrong meant being right" /... the list goes on.

Now, while listening to the inexpressibly beautiful "Ricky" I came across an even more contradictory contradiction (if you can say so). But I'm not sure if I understand right. It's not in the official lyrics. There it says of the last lines:

"And you can function as someone besides who you are" (4x)

But if you listen carefully there suddenly open up (at least) four different ways of understanding it:

And you can function as someone besides who you are
And you can't function if someone decides who you are
And you can function if someone decides who you are
And you can't function as someone besides who you are

I'm keen to know what your ears and minds tell you about Rickys ending. And did you find any other examples of comparable ambiguity that is not expressed in the official lyrics?

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

Interestingly, the last line before "And you can function..." can be seen as a hint for the upcoming ambiguity.

It sais:

"There's alot in what appears not to be there at all."

[Fenix]

Interesting insight on a song I never really cared for much, thanks for that Maya. The song as a whole seems to be really ambigous and I like your ideas.
I think the 2nd fits especially well, "And you can't function if someone decides who you are".

But the other 3 make sense as well, somehow. But personally, I think this song reflects the state of mind described in one of John's quotes :"I don't care if what you think I am is really what I am. What you think I am is way more important than what i really am."(Unfortunately I can't find the source anymore or I would link to it)

As for similar motifs, Central has aways been a curious song - lyrically - to me. As far as the music goes, I think it's one of John's best and the lyrics also seem to compensate the music, but if you peer through them you can find interesting contradictions.

"Im dreading a time that is not near
As a man on cross I have no fear

I cant believe these words Im saying
"

At first glance, those lines look incredibly narcissistic. But when you take in consideration the lines before it, There is a strong theme of one's consciousness exiting the physical body, "walking alongside myself..." I really have no idea what to think of the lyrics when all put together, yet I really enjoy thinking about it.

[Nimi]

I agree, Maya___and the Cosmic Dance, that the lyrics often include contradictory or dichotomous elements of some kind.

I have heard the ending lines of “Ricky” somewhat similarly as you did, though in the booklet there really is only one line printed. I think the linguistic perspective represented in the four lines you wrote, is very much with the “reality” in a sense, since all of the “meanings” are true at the same time. You can’t function as someone besides who you are, but at the same time you do - and referring to what Fenix wrote above - for others you might actually very well function as someone besides who you are.

And anyways since all of the "meanings" are present all the time, the “meaning” or the “truth” or whatever you want to call it is born when you choose a side. It's a bit like quantum physics - this interpretation of J.F. lyrics...

So to put it short, it is chicken, it is eggs…

[orangevarld]

Some of the quotes from Maya___and the Cosmic Dance are confusing me, but I love them. By the way, "being confused is an exercise"
One of the most intriguing for me is "The will to death is what keeps me alive". I'd say the will to death means the reason to live (and actively) because you don't want to die for nothing.

Others have a rather clear meaning to me, and I love them too:

When I read "to be here you first got to die", I understand "die" as the symbol of the step to get further. It can be just the symbolic death, the death of the ego (which is also the main concept on The Empyrean).
"I wouldn't know my face if you all were me" I love this sentence because I think that it means that the only way to know yourself is to know the others, it looks like a promotion of the difference between every human (for example, between sex, race, opinion, etc.), this is why it should be boring, if not the hell, to be the last man on earth.
"being tall means lacking height" seems to refer to arrogance (but maybe the real arrogance woudl be that I pretend to know the meaning of this).
"Language is false but it speaks to me" seems to refer to the idea that what matters is the personal meaning we get from the language (this is not true to say that places are gone when they're no one to see them, but it speaks to me).

[patches]

John has literally mentioned this exact concept as forming many of his lyrics, i am going to look through the interview archive and see if I can find it. It was an interview for The Empyrean.

I am glad that he chose this style. It creates living space in the songs and lyrics that is so much like one moment shot in infinity's rounds. : )

Wishing , that song is very close to what you are describing, that is for sure.

[patches]

Here it is! I remember this making a big impression on me so when I saw your thread i thought back to it immediately.

Quote

Joe Bosso (music radar): A reader by the name of "Vivi" says: Four years ago you said that your lyrics were a big joke. Do you still feel the same way?
John Frusciante: I think that's being taken out of a context like, like, um...I like to play games with my lyrics and make things that are sort of amusing to me...umm...to offset ideas with other ideas in ways that you never would in a normal everyday speech, you know? Ever since I started really having fun writing lyrics, it's always been in a way to sort of put ideas together that seem in contrary to one another or to do things with words, like I said, that you'd never, there would be ways that you'd never be able to put them together in a everyday speech, but somehow the ideas are informed by the the quality of music that-that they're joining with and just like in poetry where the meter sort of gives a meaning to the words, I think that even, it happens in a more powerful way when you're writing lyrics, you know? And I think you should always be having fun when you're doing things, so it's like...they're not ideas that make me LAUGH or that I think they're silly or something. They're just ideas that I find amusing and they trigger some sort of a echo in my, in my head that makes me feel good, you know?

[MomentsHaveYou]

Two of the most blatant contradictions in JF's lyrics:

From 'The Afterglow': Shadows casting bodies/Who know which way things will go?/All shifting images/Upside down to be upright

From 'A Loop': Icicles are flames in this city/Everything is what it is not/Each thing diametrically opposed to itself

I chose these as they both explain outright why he's using contradictory imagery as well as the imagery itself. I think the idea here is about cycles - everything is closest to its exact opposite. Like the saying (and Mamas and Papas lyric): 'The darkest hour is just before dawn'.

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

Thanks a lot for sharing your insights! John loves to mumble his lyrics and it's quite hard to distinguish between can/can't, if/as and decides/besides. But as far as I'm concerned, it would be typical John to write down one line in the official lyrics and singing two or four different lines in the actual song - lines that even contradict themselves.

For me, too, "the will to death is what keeps me alive" is one of the most compelling paradoxes. It seems to sum up most of what Johns lyrics and music is about. I'm a bit cautious when it comes to explain in words and detail what it means to me (though I love to read about what others say it means to them). But it definitley has a lot to do with the idea of "letting go", transferred to the universal questions of life.

It's interesting that you, Fenix, mention the song "Central". As for you, for me it's one of the best pieces of music ever. I remember listening to it the very first time. Laying on my back... I was completly healthy and clean and sober... yet, the music itself changed my consciousness in a way I had never experienced before. It felt like waking up from being awake; like being thrown into the present moment "where all time starts". Especially at the end when he repeats the lines you quoted. Indeed, they contain a great contradiction. And again, it's hard to defoliate them by using words.

[AzteC]

patches, on 02 February 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Here it is! I remember this making a big impression on me so when I saw your thread i thought back to it immediately.

Quote

Joe Bosso (music radar): A reader by the name of "Vivi" says: Four years ago you said that your lyrics were a big joke. Do you still feel the same way?
John Frusciante: I think that's being taken out of a context like, like, um...I like to play games with my lyrics and make things that are sort of amusing to me...umm...to offset ideas with other ideas in ways that you never would in a normal everyday speech, you know? Ever since I started really having fun writing lyrics, it's always been in a way to sort of put ideas together that seem in contrary to one another or to do things with words, like I said, that you'd never, there would be ways that you'd never be able to put them together in a everyday speech, but somehow the ideas are informed by the the quality of music that-that they're joining with and just like in poetry where the meter sort of gives a meaning to the words, I think that even, it happens in a more powerful way when you're writing lyrics, you know? And I think you should always be having fun when you're doing things, so it's like...they're not ideas that make me LAUGH or that I think they're silly or something. They're just ideas that I find amusing and they trigger some sort of a echo in my, in my head that makes me feel good, you know?

I was trying to find this earlier. Straight from the horses mouth, he puts contradictions in his lyrics all the time. So its pointless to try and find meaning out of a lot of them when John himself says they are just contradictions and he is merely playing 'games' with his lyrics.

[Iva]

LOL...I'm "Vivi", I asked that question! To this day I wonder why I used the name my great grandmother was using for me when I was two years old, probably because of the fear that, as an owner of this site, I don't deserve having a question answered. A good moment to laugh at own past anxiety/paranoia.

Other than that, I don't think this approach is sensational. Almost all poets and musicians whose lyrics are based on poetry, musicians who are highly literate (which includes John and is a good proof that a degree is not a sign of talent and brains) play with words.

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

Yep, he is playing games with his lyrics. But he is not "merely" playing games. He is amusing himself - and is very serious at the same time. He wants to have fun in what he's doing and at the same time confronts himself with major incidents and problems of his own life and with profound obstacles of life in general. At least, thats how I see it... walking through the joyful gate of sadness.

Iva/Vivi - I'd be very grateful if you could name an example (or as many as possible) of literate musicians who make use of paradoxes and contradictions roughly as much as Frusciante does. I wanna know about them! I mean, sure, they all play with words. But constantly and purposely using contradictory statements all the time is a different thing. And quite exceptional. But if I'm missing some great poets in the world of popmusic - I really want to learn about them.

[patches]

Iva, on 04 February 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

LOL...I'm "Vivi", I asked that question! To this day I wonder why I used the name my great grandmother was using for me when I was two years old, probably because of the fear that, as an owner of this site, I don't deserve having a question answered. A good moment to laugh at own past anxiety/paranoia.

Other than that, I don't think this approach is sensational. Almost all poets and musicians whose lyrics are based on poetry, musicians who are highly literate (which includes John and is a good proof that a degree is not a sign of talent and brains) play with words.

I am glad you asked the question the way that you did. John's response was as candid as the one he would have wanted to give if someone asked "what do you like about writing song lyrics" but it would have been harder to answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I really like how Enough of Me and One More of Me are like two songs that contradict but then also join together to show a fuller spectrum about life. both of these are true really and bothmaybe are false.. : ) and in that there is a lasting beauty.

whatever slips out of your hands will find its way back to you once again

what's gone will never come back (but exists when you think of it)

Edited by Iva, 04 February 2012 - 05:46 PM.
Something odd happened with your line breaks, fixed it.

[FirmKick]

Good observation. There are a lot of themes to his songs that appear over and over again (emphasis on time, the word "things") and contradictions is one of them.

Other contradictions I can think of in John's songs...


The Slaughter

Though she seems to stay in one place
She grows whit you life
So cry for time
What's slow and fast at the same time


Song to Sign When I'm Lonely

Out of place in my own time
Drowning thinkin that I'm dry
Holding on to facts that'll never be proven
Faking an action cus no one's looking


Someone's

Someone's waiting to fly with me
Someone's saying goodbye everytime she says hello
Cuz they both connect no one with somebody

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

Thanks again for you interesting thoughts and examples.

When I found out that you can listen to "Enough of me" and "One more of me" at the same time, I was impressed a lot. No question, he outdid himself here. Showing - as he has never before - that the way up and the way down are the same (as Heraclitus said). And Patches, I think your expression "showing a fuller spectrum about life" comprises - at least in parts - why Frusciante likes to make use of contradictions.

Again, from your examples, I'm surprised how essential the paradoxical is to the understanding of Frusciantes lyrics. In the few lines you quoted, FirmKick, there are two more contradictions that you didn't mark and which I never noticed before:

"Holding on to facts that'll never be proven" --- As far as I know, most people would speak of facts when there is at least the possibility to prove them.

"Faking an action cus no one's looking" --- Because noone is looking? Don't we usually fake actions when someone is looking?

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

By the way, here is what John Frusciante himself states explicitly about the concept of contradiction and opposites (from The Description of the Story of The Empyrean):

"He realizes that the ways in which the imaginations source is hidden from him are guides and road signs to help him become one with that source by means of his own resourcefulness. He realizes that confusion and pain have been as much the cause of what’s made his life meaningful and pleasureful as things he mistook for being pure goodness. Everything here contains its contradiction and so up and down, left and right, forwards and backwards, happy and sad, pleasure and pain, are each two things, which are one. And all things we believe to be separate are one thing. The illusion of separateness is the cause of pain, and it is also part of the cause of all the works of beauty people have created... Pain sets us to work and gives us a basis out of which to create works, which inspire pleasure, in the same way that darkness gives the sun a basis through which to shine light. The triumphant aspect of feeling great depends on one having absorbed pain. Appreciating your own value can be achieved to whatever degree you have faced feelings of your own worthlessness. Opposites give one another their meaning."

[One More Of Me]

Maya____and the Cosmic Dance, on 16 February 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

By the way, here is what John Frusciante himself states explicitly about the concept of contradiction and opposites (from The Description of the Story of The Empyrean):

"He realizes that the ways in which the imaginations source is hidden from him are guides and road signs to help him become one with that source by means of his own resourcefulness. He realizes that confusion and pain have been as much the cause of what’s made his life meaningful and pleasureful as things he mistook for being pure goodness. Everything here contains its contradiction and so up and down, left and right, forwards and backwards, happy and sad, pleasure and pain, are each two things, which are one. And all things we believe to be separate are one thing. The illusion of separateness is the cause of pain, and it is also part of the cause of all the works of beauty people have created... Pain sets us to work and gives us a basis out of which to create works, which inspire pleasure, in the same way that darkness gives the sun a basis through which to shine light. The triumphant aspect of feeling great depends on one having absorbed pain. Appreciating your own value can be achieved to whatever degree you have faced feelings of your own worthlessness. Opposites give one another their meaning."

Wow, that's beautiful where can I find the rest of it? Cuz to be honest, that was slightly illuminating

[Maya____and the Cosmic Dance]

I agree, those words are wonderful. The Description of the Empyrean is probably the most explicit account of his personal worldview (outside of his lyrics and music, of course). Might be the reason why he has taken it from his blog so quick. Perhaps he considered them to be too explicit. It's not a secret that he doesn't like to be nailed down to one opinion. And if you consider how many eyes are upon him and follow his life and art, you can really understand it. But that, of course, doesn't change the beauty of his words.

The full article should be on this website somewhere. But I can't find it. Maybe Iva can help us out here. Until then you can go to:

http://www.musiker-b...ean-2009-a.html

You have to scroll down!

[One More Of Me]

Thank you SO much!!

[patches]

the main lyric i think of about the writings not staying there was this!
when your leader's gone?
he means to make you strong,
he never went away!
(what you need you are)

leader can be a confusing word but i guess, think of it as meaning elder or friend or helper or teacher.